Staring at the dead fetal pig on my silver tray, I do not want to touch its slimy, sticky outsides OR insides. I do not want to dissect this animal; however, I took Biology knowing I was going to have to. Everyone knows when you take Biology, you are going to be dissecting. Why in the world would anyone take Biology in college and not expect to dissect? Granted exceptions are often given for religious reasons, as protected by the First Amendment, but what about moral convictions? This is left to the teacher's discretion. If you do not want to dissect, take a class where an alternative is given.

At Radford University, students have a choice. They choose which classes they take, the times they take them, and the professors who teach them. If you know you do not want to participate in a major section of a class, wouldn't it make sense to figure out which professors are going to offer an alternative BEFORE you sign up for a class? It is the responsibility of the student to check these things, not the responsibility of the teacher to accommodate to each individual student. We are not in high school anymore. Welcome to the real world.

Students keep complaining about their rights. What about the rights of teachers? Webster defines academic freedom as freedom to teach or to learn without interference. Teachers have a right to choose whether they want to offer an alternative to dissection. It is not as if our professors just walked into the classroom off the street. They have been chosen by Radford University to teach our classes because of who they are and what they know. If a professor tells you he wants you to dissect, it is not only because they know what they are talking about, but because it is at their discretion. As professors, they have earned that right. They have taken these classes and know what works.

What appalls me the most is the Campus Awareness of Animal Rights (CAAR) Organization's insistence on demanding too much. The head of the Biology Department was nice enough to try to work with CAAR. She said professors would print on their syllabi whether or not they offered alternatives. She then went as far as to offer to work with students who choose not to dissect and place them in classes where the option is given. She is giving CAAR an inch, but they want a mile.

To be perfectly honest, I do not think there is anything anyone could do to get a better deal. The school certainly is not going to change any policies because of those two precious words: academic freedom. Hypothetically, if Radford were to make the changes, where would we draw the line? What happens when a student refuses to study slavery in history? An argument could just as easily be made. It is certainly possible that there are students on this campus who are offended by the ideas of slavery and could refuse to study it because the material offends them. Should we then ask them to e-mail the Deans of this campus and ask our classes be censored?

Even if the University was to consider changing its policy, CAAR has approached the issue completely wrong. Spamming 4,000 Radford University students and asking them to e-mail our University's President, Dr. Covington, is not the way to get answers. Personally, I do not want him wasting his time sifting through e-mails on an issue that should be handled first through the Biology Department. Students should have e-mailed CAAR and then CAAR could have presented the e-mails at one time. They could have easily started a petition. If they wanted a better outreach tactic, they could have put a table up in Heth. Granted some of these actions have been executed now, however they should have been at the beginning.

I think CAAR should appreciate the extent to which the head of the Biology Department has gone to in trying to accommodate all students. They should take what they can get on the short term, and then look to the long term. I, for one, will continue to stare at my pig.

Name: Olivia VP CAAR
Comments:
Like we've mentioned before, there are some majors (ie dance) who are required to take biology. Human cadavers come from people who wanted their bodies to be donated, not from people killing them randomly just to study

Comments:
Hmmmm.....dissecting a pig or a human. Why don't you activists take geology or chemistry or physics instead?

Comments:
I believe it starts next semester. This is what I have quoting Dr. Niehaus: The Biology Department would therefore be willing to arrange a special set of laboratories for students with sincerely held beliefs prohibiting their use of fetal pigs. Students would be allowed to learn on the human cadaver and take the same lab practical as the other students, but using the cadaver instead of the pig. In order to support this accommodation, I would ask that: 1) students contact the chair before registration so that a suitable time can be arranged. The lab will have to be in the morning when the anatomy lab is available. During the first week of classes we may be able to accommodate additional students in the selected laboratory; otherwise, we will make every effort to accommodate them in the next semester. 2) Only one such laboratory per semester will be offered and only if there is at least one student making a request.

Comments:
I don't think it is a lack of civility or mental capacity. Its a lack of maturity and respect for the right of other to express their opinions. Keep right on Scott, we are not all arrogant, obnoxious jerks. I do wish we could get back to CAAR though. When will the animal friendly version of class be offered?

Name: Whim
Comments:
Scott, We're not treading on anything. Let me determine what's libelous and what's not please. I appreciate your feedback as always, but these comments are getting off topic. There's no need to rebut this comment, so please don't bother. I'll see you in other postings, I'm sure. :) And to "fed up with Scott's BS" -- you play nicely, or we'll kick you off our playground. :)

Name: S Cloud
Year: Senior
Major: Social Science
Comments:
Well, there are two things I have definitely learned at RU. One is that most people don't like to consider criticism of their perspective. If you have an idea contrary to theirs, then obviously there is something wrong with YOU. The other thing is that when you give folks the opportunity to reveal their true nature publicly without revealing their identity, the people who are jack-asses usually will. I must have really stepped on some toes to receive such a hateful diatribe. It doesn't bother me though. My e-mail has been filled with every kind of threat and insult you could imagine, for basically speaking my mind. So after a while, I have gotten to used to the fact that there a lot of morons in the world who either aren’t civilized enough or don't have the mental capacity to sit down and have an objective, robust debate. So to the poster below, I bear you no ill will, only pity. Note to whim, we are treading the line on libel here. I'll let it slip, but other students might not.

Name: Fed up with Scott's B.S.
Year: Junior
Comments:
Could someone please call a surgeon? I think Scott needs help getting a stick removed from his ass--it's been there since my freshman year, so I know it needs medical attention. Didn't you graduate? Get a life!

Comments:
I would like to comment on CAAR's heroic effort. They approached the biology chair and asked what alternatives were available. When hearing the idea of "academic freedom" they went off and started petitions, emails, and letter campaigns. They didn't even attempt to work more productively with the biology department. I must disagree with our alum when calling them heroes. CAAR never seemed to want to be diplomatic. I must say that those who think petitions and letters are ever going to change things are in for a surprise when they get into the real world and end up failing in their efforts.

Name: Amy Rhodes
Year: alumna
Major: Media Studies and Political Science
Comments:
As a 1997 graduate from Radford, a founding member of CAAR, and a current PETA employee, I would like to comment on the debate surrounding the work CAAR has put into obtaining an alternative to dissection. I question whether those who have expressed objections to a humane alternative have any real knowledge whatsoever of the horrors that comprise the biological supply industry. Investigations of these companies have exposed dozens of acts of gross cruelties to live animals received and killed at the facility. Video footage of the atrocities that abound in this industry resulted in veterinarians from the U.S. Department of Agriculture testifying that the company pumped formaldehyde into cats while they were still alive. To meet the demands of today's compassionate students, sophisticated computer simulations, videodiscs, and models have been developed. Studies going back as far as 1969 support the educational merit of these alternatives. In fact, all the studies of this issue show that students who use alternatives perform as well as or better than students who use dissection! Many of the leading medical schools, including Harvard, Yale, and Stanford, now use innovative clinical teaching methods rather than old-fashioned animal laboratories. I can assure you that the integrity of Radford's Biology department will NOT come into question by providing alternatives but, instead, will be upheld as a compassionate, progressive place to learn. College is a forum for interaction between professors and students. No one benefits from having professors or administration dictate to them. We all should be lifetime learners and the most influential professors I had at Radford were those who were willing to learn from their students and the experiences and outlooks their students brought to the classroom. Doing otherwise merely perpetuates the doldrums that serve to dilute any motivation a student may have for learning. I applaud CAAR for their heroic work and efforts in bringing an alternative to dissection to Radford and am delighted that the Biology Department has made the compassionate decision to hear their arguments. Attempts at activism at Radford are difficult at best when students who actually bother to care are faced day in and day out with the apathy that seems to permeate the campus at times. We should not thwart the efforts of a group of devoted students who have chosen to work towards an end, that of animal suffering, in which they believe so strongly.

Comments:
Taken from the front page to the directory at http://www.runet.edu/~staffweb/directory/frames/index.html "This RU Campus Directory is provided as a tool for those who have specific interest in reaching individual students or employees of Radford University. Information obtained from this Directory may not be used to provide addresses for mailings to students, parents of students, or faculty/staff." Investigation or at least policy clarification is warrented.

Comments:
I don't thinkit was CAAR's intent was to tell ANYBODY how to teach their class, but rather to ask that there be more classes offered. It doesn't seem like they want to disrupt what other students feel is a "privelige" to dissect.

Name: Jenn
Comments:
I agree with you Kristin. You should be prepared to do some things in life that you may not want to. I was well aware that I would be dissecting a pig when I started my bio 102 class last semester. I looked forward to the dissection and thought it was very interesting to see how everything fit and worked together. If you wanted to take biology then you should be aware that means dissection. I understand animal rights issues and support some of them and I respect the opinions of CAAR, but if we don't dissect an animal what are we going to dissect? I don't think there are enough people who would donate their bodies to science just so a couple of freshman can cut them up for a general ed class.

Comments:
Just to point out two things "The RoC" states/questions in his comments. One there is no need for an investigation into the spam emails. :-) Everyone's email was in the student directory. CAAR simply wrote the address in alphabetical order. And as far as the SGA President, we elected SGA's FIRST Minority President who is NOT affiliated with the IFC or such similar body last March. SGA - a social club might sound like a good term if they didn't support one of Virginia's most strict alcohol policies in the state.

Comments:
CARR RUZ!!!

Name: S Cloud
Year: Senior
Major: Social Science
Comments:
Quick note: My main philosophical gripe with the SGA is the way it is set up. In a lot of ways, I feel that it limits students' real political power. Therefore, I have no intention of getting involved in any substantive way with something I feel is pretty futile. By getting involved, I feel I would be granting a certain amount of credibility to a system that I just don't agree with. Thanks for the invite though. I encourage all students who agree with me (all 6 of you) to join me in pretty much ignoring it.

Name: The Author
Year: 2002
Major: Elementary Education
Comments:
I've been a little busy lately so I havn't had time to read through these comments until now, and I must say I am a little baffled. As a student I wrote this article, not as a member of SGA, just as I did not write it as a member of a sorority. This article reflects my personal opinion and not the opinions of the organizations I belong to. When one takes a government course, one learns politicians have to make a choice: do I represent the opinion of my constituents or my moral beliefs? I am upset someone would assume which chioce I have made as a Senator and not asked my opinion, but that's not completly the issue. The point is I wrote this article to express my opinions and beliefs as a student not as a Senator. On the SGA bashing: you are a student and you have a right to express your opinion to SGA. SGA meetings are open to all students for that reason. If you want to see a change, I want to see you at 5:00PM on Mondays in the SGA Confrence Room in Heth, or a letter in my mailbox telling me your opinion, or you running for office. I personally have nothing to gain by serving on SGA. I'm not particularly interested in politics, but I felt a need to serve the students and have tried to at the best of my abilities. I am not seeking political office when I graduate, I'm not even seeking office next semester. And I certainly don't need a resumee buffer. I am a member of SGA for the sole purpose of serving the students of this campus and representing their opinions to the best of my abilities. Please do not judge me, my actions or my reasoning if you do not know what they are and havn't taken the time to ask me. And as for the issue for being open minded, please read what I wrote again. I think if you look a little closer you will see I never said students did not have to right to request an alternative; I said teachers had the right not to offer one. I am offering a different opinion to that of CAAR so students may see the other side of the issue and not be "close minded". As a future teacher I hope no principal, let alone a student, marches in my classroom and tells me how to teach my class. That is one of MY rights. I hope this has cleared things up a little and maybe ya'll understand a little better where I was coming from. I am welcome to your comments and opinions if you'd like to take the time to e-mail them to me because I do not often have time to read the feedback sections. Thankyou for expressing your concerns. I hope I have resolved any issues.

Name: the RoC (-+-)
Year: Sophmore
Major: Still deciding
Comments:
At most southern schools, the SGA serves pretty much at the will of the IFC or a similar body. A lot of people claim that is why is has taken so long to get black SGA presidents at schools like Ole Miss and other schools with frats (read that good old boys). I don't know about RU, but I have not seen enough to make me believe otherwise. In fact, I have never seen anything that the RU SGA has ever done to make me either respect them or not. For better or worse, our SGA seems to be a social club that gets to change wording in the handbook. About the caar thing, how did the students get those 4000 email adresses anyway? Didn't they break some sort of university regulation or honor code thingy? I demand an investigation! :-)

Name: S. Cloud
Year: Senior
Major: Social Science
Comments:
I planned to completely leave this conversation and let it get back to the CARR debate, but I have been attacked, so I feel it fair to respond. I am not a member of the SGA nor would I be, given the opportunity. However, I have been a critical observer of its actions and it political context for quite a while (since long before the Mannix scandals). How does “SO” know or not know how much I know or not know about SGA policy and procedures? I admit that I know little of the day to day trivial details of the organization, but how does that invalidate my criticism of it? Do you have to be on the inside before you know it is not the best political representation for students? That argument seems to insinuate that if you aren’t one of us in the club, then you have no business talking about the club especially if you say something bad to say about it. Also, I agree with the definition of politician put forth by the “commentator”. I know hundreds of politicians and very few of them hold any formal office. Hell, RU is crawling with them. Most of them have the guts to leave more than their initials and major on a feedback board though. I would expect more from someone obviously associated with the SGA. (With that, I bow out unless attacked again.)

Year: SO
Major: CRJU
Comments:
Scott has no point about SGA. How long has he been affiliated and involved with SGA? He may seem to know the workings of European University systems, but does he know ours? How can one suggest change if they do not understand current policy or practices. Commenter, before you agree about points made, you should have some background on them first. Commenter,did you just learn about politics in your 110 intro class? Please do more research about the members of SGA and stop making generalizations and incorrect assumptions about them. Thanks.

Comments:
politicians aren’t only the people who get elected or appointed to political office. politicians are those who skillfully manipulate relationships, either public or private, to achieve some goal. politics is just the just of power. politicians use know how to increase their power and use it to their advantage. scloud has a point about the SGA.

Name: Curious Party
Comments:
I have a question for CAAR...like S. CLoud mentioned...are there any more battles for CAAR on this campus now that the biology dept. has adjusted their courses? What's next?

Comments:
Thanks, Scott, for killing this dialogue.

Name: S. Cloud
Year: Senior
Major: Social Science
Comments:
Forgive me for dragging this dialogue away from the issue of Carr and back to the tangential issue of the SGA once again. The Dillon’s rule analogy is this case is a red herring. (though Dr. Hrenzo would be proud of us debating this after class) Democratic regimes by their very nature derive their authority from those who are governed. The question here is how much of a say should we have in the governance of our own university. Clearly, the SGA system represents one popular American school of thought about this issue. Practically though, I think that the SGA system gives students a chance to affect change only on a limited scale. I commend President Mendiola on the fine work he has done, yet I pity his rather limited role in the whole fabric of University administration. In some European democracies, students have taken a much more active, involved role in governing their universities. Their demands reverberate with the political force that most American college students could only dream of. Again I say, I don't think there is any way we will be able to get past the SGA system any time soon and even if we did I don't think RU students are quite ready for it. Yet, I wish to make it clear to my fellow students who long for more direct control over their affairs that there IS a better way. Forgive my zealotry about this. I just finished watching Saving Private Ryan and I'm all riled up with fervor about populist democracy. Ok, I got that out of my system. I’ll drop it.

Name: Shaun2
Year: Senior
Major: English
Comments:
Umm, guys, I thought we were talking about CAAR and their emailing people on campus about the dissection issue, not bashing the SGA. Or is it just me?

Name: George
Year: Senior
Major: CRJU
Comments:
I would just like to thank Scott for his comments on the existence of Student Government. Although it is a good thing to state your opinion openly, I think that many students throughout our community have a different view of the need to elect its own representatives or have an organization to represent its views. But just for more facts, the SGA does not necessarily exist at the will of the students. It was RU's first President, Dr. McConnell who organized the SGA to represent the student body. SGA's constitution is approved by the Board of Visitors. Through this delegation of authority and responsibility to SGA, we do our very best to stay informed of concerns and opinions of students. I disagree with Scott's comments simply because without a select few it would be difficult for the administration or our students to get comments surrounding policy changes. Examples of this includes the recent changes to the student handbook, or the addition of new general education classes, or even changes to the academic calendar. Most of the members in SGA DO NOT have any future political aspirations, they simply want to get involved and do something to improve our university. To this date, I do not know of any pervious SGA member who has ever been elected to political office or appointed to political seats, except for an alumni who was appointed to the Board of Visitors. In conclusion, I would like to applaud Scott for speaking up on the issue of SGA. I am proud to know students are willing to take the initiative to state an opinion that may not be very popular. Thanks again, I look forward to discussing this issue with you (Scott) and other students. But just one last thing to point out, based on my education of state and local government, SGA is like a local government. Its powers and authority are derived from a higher entity, in this instance the board of visitors, whereas, local governments derive their powers from the state not the citizens - aka: the Dillon Rule. :-)

Name: S.Cloud
Year: Senior
Major: Social Science
Comments:
I don't believe for a minute that, as President Mendiola puts it, "Members of SGA really do not have any personal agenda." Why would anyone ever run for the SGA if they didn't see some personal gain out of it? Are the SGA officers there completely out of some altruistic motivation? Possible, but not likely. He is very correct is stating that students on a whole are very apathetic. Yet, I disagree with his insinuation that the best way to effect policy is to work through the SGA. Why should THEY be the primary conduit of OUR political actions? Who gives them this monopoly? Their right to govern is based on our consent, which currently is shaky at best. If it were left up to me, there would be an election every year first authorizing the SGA into existence, then electing its officers. Why do we even need a SGA? It has always struck me as a future politicians club that serves as a great buffer between the students and administration. I would like to see RU tear down that buffer. We should elect members of our own numbers directly to university senate. We should have a seat on the board of visitors. We who are the customers and students should have direct but perhaps not total control over the university, not just a tired old cliché of an institution that few students respect much less participate in. Is this possible? Probably not. Most people would rather drink themselves silly that fight for their political voice. That’s probably we’ll always have an SGA, and that very few people will care about the SGA. That’s why the SGA can get by with pursuing whatever political projects that happens to strike the fancy of the very few people who join or pay attention to the future politicos club.

Name: George
Year: Senior
Major: Criminal Justice
Comments:
I would just like to thank Kristin for a very well written article. I would like to make some comments based on Rick and Phillipe's comments regarding SGA. Members of SGA really do not have any personal agenda. Our members become part of the organization to represent the students in changes to university policies and procedures and to also serve as the liaison between students and the administration. It is unfortunate the Phillipe feels SGA is not representing his opinion. But there are 8500 students who all have an opinion. SGA senators make their decisions when sorting out student opinions. One example is the CAAR issue. CAAR presented their issue on dissection and answered questions from SGA members. SGA then responsiblly tabled the issue to speak to the Biology chair at another SGA meeting. SGA then placed an ad in the tartan asking students for their opinion on the issue. NO ONE RESPONDED! Fortunately, CAAR and the biology department resolved this issue together. Student Government does not make decisions based on ONE persons opinion. If your opinion is not represented during important discussions then its either because not many students share that opinion or it is not a reasonable opinion that can be worked out. So if you would like to criticize the student government in the future I ask that you first attend a meeting and then speak with your senator. We are not mind readers, unless you tell us your opinion, we will never know.

Name: Rick
Year: Sophmore
Comments:
I'm not suprised by the reaction by an SGA representative. I agree with Phillipe in that our SGA has way too many PERSONAL adgendas to give a good god damn about what RU students REALLY think is important. My biggest reaction to this article is this: Why NOT have a choice in this world? If the students are given a choice in the matter, then it is a win-win situation. When a choice is given to students to have more freedom, why fight it, because even if you don't want to take that choice, how does it negatively affect YOUR life? The answer: It doesn't! So why would someone be so against CAAR's fight for freedom? Good question. Sounds like the author has some personal issues with people that have different beliefs. Try opening your mind to something besides your OWN personal adgenda.

Name: Phillipe Ernestine
Year: senior
Comments:
Author, you represent exactly what I expect from RU's SGA. I have not yet met a member of "my" student government who represents the opinion of students over their own bias and predjudice. Personally, I feel that CAAR has a voice to be heard, much like any other club or organization on this campus. It matters not that I have nothing in common with these activist groups. What matters is that CAAR sought out a problem that needed fixing, and they stuck with it to get things fixed. This will not affect you if you want to cut open animals. You can still do that. You, of all people, should know how much red tape and bureaucratic B.S. this university uses to keep out new, fresh ideas. Yet CAAR's voice was finally heard through all of the smoke. I cannot think of a more noble thing that that. So cheers to you, CAAR. I applaud your efforts.

Name: dianne
Year: senior
Major: soc work
Comments:
excellent article. I agree.

Name: S. Cloud
Year: Senior
Major: Social Science
Comments:
I'm the first to admit that I am not the most supporting peer to my friends in the animal rights movement, but I can't fault them on their campaign. Spam is a form of mass political communication just as valid as a petition, only more technically cumbersome. I do wish they would have a been a little more careful in their rhetoric about rights, but that is forgivable. Also, one of the feedback comments spoke of the frog issue as the premiere CAAR battle. What more is there to do?

Name: jamie howell
Year: Freshman
Major: Pre-major
Comments:
I was one of the ones spammed and i really didn't appreciate it. But i really like the article and i agree with it. THE CAAR NEEDS TO LAY OFF A LITTLE!!! That's all i gotta say.

Name: Nate Berkoff
Year: 2001
Major: Business
Comments:
I think that the right for students to decide what they learn in the classroom setting is one that is not being taken seriously enough at RU. Personally, I feel that if there are students whom do not wish to disect animals, then they should not take biology. Certainly the college must offer other classes to fulfill the laboratory science requirements. Otherwise, if the students are so incredibly interested in biology yet can not stand the idea of disection then they have their own reality issues to deal with. Biology has always been the study of the interworkings of life, and that has sterotypically included the insides of animals since the 1950s. If a group of students is against this practice, then they have every right not to take the class. Why though, should they be so pretentious as to attempt to stiffle the academic rights of other students. There has to be another issue of greater importance for this group to fight for. Really. It makes me sad to admit that I am as well one who fights for animal rights when there are people as misguided as this being crowded into the same category as me. They are worse than the people who throw red paint at people wearing fur, at least those people have identified a cruelty and have desired effect with their ludicrous actions. Go picket a steak-house and leave the bio department alone.

Name: Jeff (the Vent Manager)
Comments:
Well, no matter what you may believe, CAAR have won their premier battle. The Biology Department will be offering classes for students who do not wish to do the dissecting themselves. For a more positive outlook on what CAAR's first mission was about, check out their story written by members Bridgett Cherry and Lisa VanRompay. For information directly from CAAR, e-mail them.